Saturday, 3 May 2014

Jom kita debat dengan Che Det...saya berani masuk gelanggang! (Let us debate with Che Det...I will take him on!)

April 29th 2014

Written by chedet.....with comments  (italics in blue) by Hussein Hamid aka steadyaku47.

1. Democracy is a great system, perhaps the best system for governing a country ever invented by man.
So far so good Tun!
2. What can be better than a government of the people, by the people, for the people. And most of the developed countries are democratic, obviously benefiting from the system.
Keep going Tun…keep going…though I think you should mengaku that the phrase "government of the people, by the people , for the people" is not your own and should be attributed to Linclon...betul tak? Cannot tipu the people all the time lah!
3. Does this mean that all countries which are governed democratically will be stable, prosperous and developed? The great democracies of the West seem to think so. Such is their faith in the system that they are willing to kill and destroy in order to promote democracy. They have now decided to bring about regime change in order to democratise the undemocratic countries. If you resist democratisation they will kill you and destroy your country. And so they did in Iraq and are doing so in the Arab countries and elsewhere.
No comment…agree...but I do wish the Americans would come to Malaysia and promote democracy here! The only ones who will resist will be Barisan Nasional...and if truth be told, I do not really care if the Americans bring about regime change in Malaysia by any means! 
4. It is assumed that the people, or at least the majority of the people would be wise enough to choose the most capable people to rule them. Unfortunately the people do not always choose the most capable. They may be influenced by race, religion, ideology and a host of other factors when electing their governments.
Agree...just look at Malaysia...but then the people had a lot of help from Umno in choosing incapable leaders by race, religion and ideology! Just think where Umno would be if the did different? Here is an example of an Umno leader they should NOT have chosen:

5. They may also choose because of money. In fact in most cases their choices are based on immediate personal gain rather than national interest.
Agree...Umno's party election would be a good example! 
6. Because of all these democracy has often failed to provide countries with good governance. Indeed it may result in dividing the people into parties and groups and pit them against each other.
Again Malaysia is a good example of this…why did you not mention Malaysia as an example Tun? Why not? It is almost as if you are avoiding doing so...surely you are not feeling guilty? You and I know that you were responsible for the government that we have today...but don't take it personally Tun..we can always blame the people of Malaysia for electing you in the first place!
7. If there are only two parties it is possible for one or the other to achieve a clear majority and to form the Government. But when there are more than two, it is entirely possible for no one party getting a clear majority of the seats in the legislature to form a Government.
Malaysia is heading towards this…thank God….but no thanks to Umno!
8. In a two party system a small majority may weaken the Government due to fear of defection by its members. Only a Government with a big majority can provide stable and effective Governments.
That is one way of looking at it Tun…but I would prefer to look at it as not weakening the government but more of keeping those bastards in government honest! Camna Tun...agree tak?
9. As stated above when there are numerous parties it is likely that none would achieve a majority (50%+) to form the Government. A coalition may need to be formed in order to achieve a majority. Such a post-election coalition Government would always be threatened by defections of a coalition partner and so losing the majority. The Government would thus always be weak and unstable.
I think defections of frog will stop when money politics stop. In fact increasingly as public distaste and abhorrence for this kind of practice increases it will pressure the frogs to stop leaping around…further more if politicians are serious about stopping this there are ways and means to legislate them for doing so. In an enlightened democracy these are the least of any government’s worry....but remember Perak Tun? Siapa buat hal kat situ? Umno kan? 
10. However, a pre-election coalition stands a better chance of winning a good majority especially if the coalition acts as a party fielding only one candidate in each constituency.
11. When this is done and the single coalition candidate is supported by all the coalition members it is likely that he will win. The chances are good for the coalition to win enough seats to form the Government. Such a coalition would be more stable and strong.
Agree…you seem to be talking more sense in your old age Tun. Bravo!
12. In Malaysia the Alliance and then the National Front coalitions which at times had as many as 14 parties have won in all the 14 elections held since independence. Such has been the success of the pre-election coalition formula that the opposition parties, despite their deep differences have decided to form their own coalition. The result is that in Malaysia there is now effectively a two-party system operating, It is therefore possible for a majority to be achieved by one or the other coalition in elections.
Alright! Now we are talking Tun! Agree! Agree! Agree!
13. So far so good. But a basic principle in elections is for the loser to accept losing, to accept the result of the polls and wait for the next election. This is what happens in mature democracies. But parties in new democracies seem quite unable to accept losing. They dispute the result and they resort to undemocratic ways to overthrow the elected party or coalition.
Agree again. Please Pakatan Rakyat…dengar ..dengar …dengar! 
14. Democracy upholds the rights of the minority. They must be protected. Therefore they are allowed to show their disappointment at losing in a variety of democratic ways. In Parliament they may stage walkouts when unable to block Government action. They may carry out active campaigning through the media and rallies to discredit the Government. Now they can make use of the alternative media to cause disaffection for the Government.
How not to agree…okay lah Tun lets go!
15. When sometimes they may resort to strikes and demonstrations.
16. All these are still permissible in a democracy. But now the strikes and street demonstrations have become so huge and prolonged as to paralyse the whole country.
Tun I think those strikes and demonstrations can only become so huge when support is forthcoming from the Rakyat!...and what’s me worry…these are all permitted in a democracy…is it not Tun? Remember how you managed to get the people behind you when you wanted to teach the Sultan’s a lesson and take away some of their rights? Is that not democracy in action? What is good for the goose should also be good for the gander!
17. In a non-democratic totalitarian state such massive demonstrations may be justified as there is no other way to change Governments. But now even when elections can determine changes in Governments, the losers in democratic elections have resorted to these disruptive acts.
Well Tun I must remind you that elections in Malaysia have not been fair and free for as long as I can remember. Remember that time in Pekan when Najib only managed to hang on to his seat because of about 200 or 300 postal votes that somehow manage to come in just in time to ensure his win? 

What about the gerrymandering of electoral boundaries to favor Barisan Nasional by the Election Commissions? 

And in the last election you and I know that the majority of the electorates voted for the opposition…but with the Election Commission working overtime for BN before, during and after the election then you must understand why the losers are a bit sore….and of course we can argue about this until the cow comes home …but let us wait for a change in government first and then all will be reveled when an inquiry is held to see how Umno and Barisan Nasional have been abusing the “democratic process” for their advantage all this time.
18. We see in Egypt, Ukraine and even Thailand the opposition resorting to mass demonstrations in order to overthrow duly elected majority Governments. In Egypt and Ukraine the elected Government have been overthrown. Strangely even when new elections are agreed to by the majority elected Government, the minority opposition would not agree and choose to continue with street demonstrations. They claim the elections would be fraudulent.
You are putting the Umno led Barisan Nasional government in good company when you mention Egypt, Ukraine and Thailand…corruption, abusive and arrogant leaders and the suppression by these leaders of the people’s rights and civil liberties….does not all this remind you of the regime under your rule Tun?   
19. The net result is continuous instability and sufferings by people and in particular the small businessmen. A situation akin to anarchy would prevail.
Tun in as far as Malaysia is concerned, the net result would be felt closer to home...your home! People are wondering how your family got so bloody insanely rich. They are asking how come only the Prime Minister is privy to Petronas’s accounts? How come wang ehsan is not paid to Kelantan? How come our public debt is so massive? How come you never took action against Rahim Thamby Chik for raping an underage Malay school girl? I can go on Tun…but I think more good that bad has come out of the activism of the demonstrators…more good for the people but more bad for you because all this happened under your watch Tun! Camna Tun agree tak?
20. So far Malaysia has been spared the instability due to massive prolonged street demonstrations. But the signs are already there. Obviously there are Malaysians who would like to bring down the elected Government through demonstrations.
The only thing that has become unstable because of the demonstration is the Umno led Barisan Nasional government because you can no longer go on pillaging and plundering our nation coffers. Not a bad thing for our nation and our people!
And as for Malaysian wanting to bring down the elected Government by demonstrations….over 50% of the electorates already tried to bring down the “elected” government during the recent general elections and they could not do so….so must demonstrate ma!
21. The series of Bersih demonstrations are obviously meant to excite public support to discredit the Government and eventually to bring it down. The Government is accused of cheating in previous elections so as to justify rejection of the coming elections should the Government party win. Massive and continuous demonstrations would then be held. 
Tun the declared aim of Bersih is : Clean and Fair elections! Kapish? The BN government has already discredit itself by its mismanagement and abuse of the trust the people of Malaysia has given them…no need for Bersih to do anything there.
22. So far the numbers in the demonstrations are not big enough to paralyse the country. Though disruptive, the businesses, including the small street stalls have not been stopped. But the hope of the organisers of Bersih must be to attract millions to participate and to be daily affairs so that the usual daily life of the people would be disrupted.
No Tun the aim of Bersih is not to disrupt the daily life of the people. It would be like me accusing you of wanting Umno to be in government so that your family’s fortune is safe and you will not be prosecute for wrong doing while you were PM…I am sure there is no truth in those rumours….again please refer to the previous question for you to know what the aims of Bersih are..! Jangan lah guna that "saya mudah lupa" excuse again...
23. A next step may be to occupy Government buildings.
No lah Tun…what for occupy Government buildings? They might go looking for you or for Rosmah to settle old scores…but why would they want to occupy Government buildings? In fact many of those working in those government building are part of Bersih! Why should they want to thrash their place of work? Sheeeshh! You nyanok lah Tun! 
24. The police would be provoked into taking violent actions. International news agencies and their television crew would then record the violence which would be broadcast throughout the world to discredit the majority elected Government. Of course violence on the part of the demonstrators would not be recorded or shown.
Tun look at this youtube footage enough lah… and can you remember how your IGP whack the former DPM? Maybe not...because in our old age kita "mudah lupa"...I rest my case!
25. Malaysians have not responded to the call. Maybe they will in the future and Malaysia would join the ranks of unstable countries incapable of being governed and much less being developed.
The fact that you are writing about it tells me that you do worry that Malaysian will respond to the call of Bersih and the opposition….well Tun I have news for you…they have already responded to the calls in the hundreds of thousands….and we can already see the change in the manner this BN government conducts itself…BN are still pillaging and plundering our nation but now they do so in the dead of night, quietly and by stealth and they take pains to not be caught while doing so…and whether they like it or not, Umno leaders must now be careful of what they do in the name of government. I am sure those Malaysia Incorporated hi jinks of yours will not be repeated by any BN government now. If they do…they die lah! No more IPPS and privatization to benefit your family or cronies...all good!
As for Malaysia joining the ranks of unstable countries incapable of being governed and much less being developedI think Tun we are almost getting there if we are not there already!
26. The world needs to make up its mind. Do we elect Government by voting or do we install Government through street demonstrations?
Tun I think it is Umno that has to decide if they will play on a level playing field or do they want to continue with money politics in election and in government!
27. Democracy as we can see is not perfect. But it is by far the best system of Government that we have. But like all systems, abuses can negate the objective.
Agree Tun..I hope Najib is reading this too!
28. If democracy is to survive and to serve the purpose for which it is devised, there must be some acceptance of the limits to the freedom that we consider democratic.
Agree too...who said this Tun has already lost his marbles... he still has some good ideas lah!
29. Free speech, free press, demonstrations and strikes must be circumscribed to some degree so that they will not destroy democracies in the name of democracy.
I think I have to agree to  disagree as to where the lines of free speech, free press, demonstrations and strikes are to be circumscribed. You have shown us where you line is drawn if Ops Lallang is anything to go by…and of course there is the ISA, the OSA and the PPPA….and hell there is also Memali....…I can go on Tun…but I think you fucked yourself big time in the limits that you have set against free speech, against free press, against demonstrations and against strikes!...fucked yourself big, big time!

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